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DCNR Survey puts hefty value tag on Pa. snowmobile activity #37818
08/21/14 02:38 PM
08/21/14 02:38 PM
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Butler , Pennsylvania , USA
4x4dad Offline OP
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We all are well aware there are approximately 10-20 times the number of ATVers than snowmobilers in the state of Pa. This DCNR survey should give a great indication of the economic impact we ATVers have on our states economy . But , by NOT having ONE voice that speaks for ALL of us , we will always be considered second class recreationalists . This also helps to point out how important surveys can be with the DCNR and how organized the Snowmobile Assoc . is and what can be accomplished when we stick together on issues .


DCNR Survey puts hefty value tag on Pa. snowmobile activity :


Winters like the one we experienced in 2013-2014 do have their pleasant side: more folks can get out and enjoy our state park and state forests in the seat of a snowmobile. And, when more folks ride, good things happen to the economy.

Just ask the Pa. State Snowmobile Association (PSSA), which proudly is pointing to its just-released results of an economic impact study and user survey. Funded by an International Snowmobile Manufacturers Association grant and assistance from the Pa. Association of Travel and Tourism, the study reaffirmed snowmobilers’ contributions to local economies across the state.

Some key points of its executive summary, focusing on individual riders:

The average respondent took 8.3 day trips within Pennsylvania and 2.6 overnight trips within the state;
The average snowmobiler reported 266 gallons of in-state fuel purchased to transport and ride their snowmobiles;
The average snowmobiler also spent a total of $779 per in-state trip for food, lodging and ancillary trip expenses;
Respondents reported annual expenditures of over $4,000 on snowmobiles and $1,000 on associated equipment.

And, the snowmobiling community's contribution to the state economy?

Resident snowmobilers spent $96 million in the Commonwealth while taking snowmobiling trips;
They spend an additional $57 million on snowmobile and equipment purchases;
This spending by state residents creates an economic significance of snowmobile tourism in Pennsylvania of $232 million to the state and local economies;
1,754 jobs were supported with $72 million of wages and salaries;
Value added to the gross state economy: $125 million.

For more information, the executive summary and complete report are posted on the association's website.

http://www.apps.dcnr.state.pa.us/news/resource/res2014/14-0820-snomosurvey.aspx link

Last edited by 4x4dad; 08/21/14 02:47 PM.
Re: DCNR Survey puts hefty value tag on Pa. snowmobile activity [Re: 4x4dad] #37821
08/21/14 07:54 PM
08/21/14 07:54 PM
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NE Pennsylvania
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dirtfan07 Offline
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Kinda begs the question; why is their no Pennsylvania State ATV Association?


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I've earned the names "Treefan" and "Deerfan"...
Re: DCNR Survey puts hefty value tag on Pa. snowmobile activity [Re: 4x4dad] #37822
08/21/14 08:47 PM
08/21/14 08:47 PM
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Northeast, PA
mikeexplorer Online content
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PaOHV is as close as we have right now and they do a lot of good work, its just always an uphill battle. For what its worth I did my own research concerning state forests, here is what I have:

There are 19 state forests in PA, total acres is 2,171,699
2,886 miles of non-motorized trails (hiking, biking, etc..) (there are more, but these are marked trails)
2,436 miles of snowmobile trails
238 miles of ATV trails, currently 58 miles of these are closed (Dixon Miller & Whiskey Springs)
12 state forests have zero ATV trails. Only 2 have zero snowmobile trails.


I have data on registered sleds verses ATV's but I have to find it


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Re: DCNR Survey puts hefty value tag on Pa. snowmobile activity [Re: 4x4dad] #37823
08/21/14 10:07 PM
08/21/14 10:07 PM
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Wind Gap, PA
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Well done Mike. That makes it pretty clear.


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Re: DCNR Survey puts hefty value tag on Pa. snowmobile activity [Re: 4x4dad] #37824
08/22/14 03:57 AM
08/22/14 03:57 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
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Butler , Pennsylvania , USA
4x4dad Offline OP
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Excellent work Mike .

What my research found is the snowmobilers are more organized than we ATV/UTVers are . Frank from Forest Lodge in Marienville is not only on the local Chamber of Commerce , but also the ANF Forest Board . When he attends Forest Usage meetings and OHV clubs show up , there may be 10-20 members from snowmobile clubs verses 1-2 ATVers .We just aren't making ourselfs heard by the proper agencies .
As far as PaOHV is concerned ..... I have no comment . doh

Chas McHenry from Rec Rider magazine will be making inquireies to this very subject next week . I'm sure ( knowing Chas ) he will have a very informative article in a upcoming issue .... ok

I spoke with 4 DCNR people after making the POST above . All I recieved after an hour on the phone was ( Pass-the-Buck ) attitude . The most informative conversation came from Kathy Frankel . She's the head of the DCNR Pittsburgh District . She not only knew of Rock Run , but also was working with Armstrong County trying to purchase Scrubgrass OHV Park with matching Federal Funding . Unfortunately the owner of Scrubgrass is asking way above market value for the park .
I also mentioned Hatfield & McCoy . She understands the economic impact we ATVers can have on local economies , but that's as far as it gets . What it seems to be is , our politicians are more worried about stuffing thier pockets with our tax money and the state wide natural gas boom money than serving thier citizens . Big surprise ...... banghead

Last edited by 4x4dad; 08/22/14 02:07 PM.
Re: DCNR Survey puts hefty value tag on Pa. snowmobile activity [Re: 4x4dad] #37826
08/22/14 01:54 PM
08/22/14 01:54 PM
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NE Pennsylvania
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dirtfan07 Offline
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I think one of the problems is that the tree-hugging crowd gives money to politicians where our argument is a positive economic impact for the state. These politicians know who's buttering their bread so maybe we need to change tactics? By the time a politician gets elected into office, they already are indebted to special interests so trying to reason with them after taking office is like pi$$ing in the wind.

If no such PAATV Association exists, would it be worthwhile to start one? Seems like a bunch of us are dedicated enough to push the cause. Snowmobiliers realized about 15yrs ago that if they didn't unite and do something they would be finished. ATV'ers need to realize this also; is their anything more aggrevating than knowing your tax money is going to fund and maintain state land that we aren't allowed to use?

I nominate Mikeexplorer for president!!


Proud 4th generation military. Thank you to all who have served

I've earned the names "Treefan" and "Deerfan"...
Re: DCNR Survey puts hefty value tag on Pa. snowmobile activity [Re: 4x4dad] #37827
08/22/14 02:42 PM
08/22/14 02:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,920
Butler , Pennsylvania , USA
4x4dad Offline OP
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Dirtfan07 , Mikeexplorer post stated it pretty well where we are with PaOHV . PaOHV is the association that is supposed to be uniting ALL off highway vehicles . At one time we here at ATVingPa pushed to have everyone join to increase the number of members at PaOHV so it would help increase the clout for them when they spoke with officials about our needs for more State trails . Especially since we have 10's of millions of dollars in our fund .
If you go to thier site and read the latest news on bike ( enduroe ) trails and thier accomplishments on the issue , you will see it's pretty much alot of the same old news of how we get ignored . Numbers of members & money being spent are supposed to be what counts . We just need an association that knows how to EFFECTIVELY work the politicians & agencies in Harrisburg .

Re: DCNR Survey puts hefty value tag on Pa. snowmobile activity [Re: dirtfan07] #37828
08/22/14 02:56 PM
08/22/14 02:56 PM
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Posts: 136
north huntingdon,pa
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flamoli Offline
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I will give you my take on the whole subject for what it is worth. I have been dealing with OHV riding issues in this state since the 70's. Our present club ICV just had issues with the DEP over giving a permit to the Gas people for putting in a line on the property we ride on. We had to close down a few small trails that cross the gas line because of stream runoff from our trails that went up a hill.The laws of the DEP stop alot of the development of trails in this state. I am not sure of the rules in WV or Ohio where I have seen less restrictions or maybe lack of enforcement in those states about dirt washing into streams but Pa seems to have alot more concern.After talking to the DEP guy and the gas line people about how to stop this and put in trails that would be ok it come down to spend lots of money. Some of the material that needs to be used is about $3 a square foot to purchase and that doesn't include you or hiring someone to put it down. If you ride the ANF look at some of the hills where they have put in stuff that looks like pavers, this is to stop the erosion on the hills and sediment from going into the streams. The snowmobile guys don't have to worry about the Sierra club and the DEP because they ride on snow and as soon as the snow and frozen ground goes away so does their riding season.The state doesn't want to do any work on trails (whether they have the money or not )they want us to form clubs or areas like Rock run and create our own area. The problem is if you get a grant from the DCNR to purchase ground 50/50 grant or just money to develop trails it comes with so many enviromental issues attached that it doesn't give you any money to do trail work just take care of all the enviroment issues. As for the forest surveys I was involved maybe 9-10 years ago in one of a few held through the state this one was at Monroeville pa. The atv's outnumbered the enviro groups at least three to one and the DCNR said that but then the state forest people came out and said that no new trails would be added to the state forest lands. That is when they started the grant stuff and wanted the private groups to start their own areas. What did we get, Rock Run.As for registration in the state I have figures for up until March of last year,if you ask the dcnr for them they should give them to you. In the West, Allegheny and Westmoreland county lead the state over all in registrations over 7000 plus registered in each county. Out east Lancaster,York and Luzerne with about 5000 each, also in the east is Erie with 5000. A couple other counties in the East are in the 4000 range plus a few more in the east are close to the 5000 range also.I cannot get my report to post on here but if anyone wants to see it I can email it to you.As others have said try to talk to a state rep ot senator about atv riding in your county and they look at you like what is a atv!!! and we don't have anywhere to put in trails. But if you talk to them about bike trails (non motorized)they are all ears.
Now my take on one orginization. The PAOHV does try to get some of our state reps to listen to us but with out alot of money and no lobby money they can get no where. Starting another group just divides the numbers and creates more wasted time and money. We have someone who can talk to the state about our issues but no one wants to join them because again it cost money and they may not get anything done for years (this is the way politics work)We heard about Rock run for at least four years before it finally came about just as an example. One other thing to mention I can say this from experience trying to keep a trail system of 35 miles open to riding all year round in our climate is a real challenge , if you do not do trail work every year you have a real mess and land that is torn up and erosion that is out of control. So again this is why most of the pay to ride places are closed in the winter,late fall and early spring, to prevent trails from damage.Also we have hunting season and we do not want to ride when there is hunting going on . Now if they allow hunting on Sundays that could also add more issues to the riding group.Again as for one group ,hunters don't want atv's riding when there is a hunting season and I hunt so I can understand this issue. Dirt bike guys and atvers ahve differnet issues among them and even sport quad riders and utility guys have issues with each other.
Now if all of these groups just supported one org. with some money could something get done in this state,maybe but I have yet to see an ATV rider group do anything but complain about things and never get involved in even going to vote about an issue.No one wants to dedicate their time to working on trails or building trails,they want someone else to do the work so they can just ride. I know this from experience in our club. PAOHV was looking for a contact in each of the counties in this state I doubt they found more that half a dozen and how many counties do we have 67.I know this is a long rant but this subject comes up once in a while and I just have to comment, hope this spurs some to get involved more than just riding and complaining.

Last edited by flamoli; 08/22/14 03:15 PM.

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Re: DCNR Survey puts hefty value tag on Pa. snowmobile activity [Re: 4x4dad] #37832
08/22/14 06:06 PM
08/22/14 06:06 PM
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Vintondale, PA
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Bobbi Offline
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Talk about perfect timing in reading these posts. I am on the Western PA SxS & ATV Riders facebook page and we have been speaking about the same issues and decided to put a committee together to see what we can do. Can you guys please request to be added to the group and we can talk further? All of your research would be a tremendous help and it would be a huge boost if you would like to join our committee. You are right....we need to get together and do something about it. Now is the time!!! My email is bsteffey1@yahoo.com and my name is Bobbi. ***Please note there is another facebook page similiar to ours so be sure to type in our complete facebook name Western PA SxS & ATV Riders

Last edited by Bobbi; 08/22/14 06:09 PM.

Bobbi
Re: DCNR Survey puts hefty value tag on Pa. snowmobile activity [Re: 4x4dad] #37833
08/22/14 07:54 PM
08/22/14 07:54 PM
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north huntingdon,pa
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flamoli Offline
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Bobbi
I sent you a email,


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2016 grizzly 700 same as above
ICV ATV CLUB,Westmoreland county four wheel drive club.
Re: DCNR Survey puts hefty value tag on Pa. snowmobile activity [Re: 4x4dad] #37834
08/22/14 08:02 PM
08/22/14 08:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,920
Butler , Pennsylvania , USA
4x4dad Offline OP
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4x4dad  Offline OP
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Butler , Pennsylvania , USA
Thanks flamoli . Again excellent research .

Thanks Bobbi .

Well gentlemen there you have our situation in a nut shell . Grassroot Commitees usually have alot of enthusiastic members willing to go the extra mile . This could be your chance to make a difference ...... declare ok

Re: DCNR Survey puts hefty value tag on Pa. snowmobile activity [Re: 4x4dad] #37837
08/22/14 08:50 PM
08/22/14 08:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 748
Northeast, PA
mikeexplorer Online content
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Well said above. PaOHV tries to do what it can but as stated, money is the issue. It is really the best we have for now but the real problem is the people. Most don't even want to get involved or as long as they still have a piece of land to ride, they don't care. More and more riding spots go away each year and unless people get organized, we will always be in the back of the group. For example, a few months ago a survey was posted here where DCNR was looking for feedback on the usage of state forest lands. This was an opportunity for the ATV community to be heard. Now out of all the members here on this forum board, how many do you think actually took the few minutes of their time to fill out the survey?

Mike


2010 Arctic Cat 366 4X4 SE
2012 Arctic Cat 450 4X4 H1
2017 Arctic Cat Alterra 400

Re: DCNR Survey puts hefty value tag on Pa. snowmobile activity [Re: 4x4dad] #37840
08/22/14 10:43 PM
08/22/14 10:43 PM
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Vintondale, PA
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Bobbi Offline
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Anyone know where the results are from the ATV survey? I was looking at your link but that was the snowmobile survey.


Bobbi
Re: DCNR Survey puts hefty value tag on Pa. snowmobile activity [Re: 4x4dad] #37841
08/22/14 10:48 PM
08/22/14 10:48 PM
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Vintondale, PA
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Bobbi Offline
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I took the survey and I posted it on a couple of ATV facebook pages asking folks to fill it out.


Bobbi
Re: DCNR Survey puts hefty value tag on Pa. snowmobile activity [Re: 4x4dad] #37847
08/23/14 02:03 AM
08/23/14 02:03 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,920
Butler , Pennsylvania , USA
4x4dad Offline OP
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I believe it was a Forest Usage survey . It gave a comment box for the improvments YOU would like to see or be added . That is where I added more trails in State Forests . Never heard anything after that .... 250exrider

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